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Old 29th Aug 2004, 12:57   #11
Colyngbourne
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:wink: Organised religion of any form is as capable as being corrupted and 'evil' as any other human construction or edifice, but this does not mean that there is no discernable spiritual aspect to our nature as humans, nor does it disprove the existence of God, whatever we take God to mean.
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Old 29th Aug 2004, 14:23   #12
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Organised religion of any form...
And that would be my major beef, of course. Personal faith, whilst I might disagree with it philosophically, is none of my business. When it crosses the threshold of the home into the social and political, well then I start to have a problem.
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Old 29th Aug 2004, 22:23   #13
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Well, I'm a firm adherent of the total division of Church and State. On the subject of gay marriage this means that while as a catholic I have to acknowledge the Church teaching, as a citizen I'm rather for it. It sounds a bit hypocritical, but I don't think it is. After all, Catholic Church doesn't accept divorces but doesn't try to change divorce legislation, and I think it's quite analogous. And, I think I should add, that even though I'm not homosexual myself I find Christian doctrine on this point particularly hard to accept. :?

Still, I don't think same sex couples should adopt children.
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Old 30th Aug 2004, 0:58   #14
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Originally Posted by NottyImp
The Soviets did those acts in the name of State Communism, not atheism.
Fair enough. I ought not to have said "in the name of". But wasn't atheism a central tenet of Communism? And even if I am mistaken on that point, surely the great majority of those who commited the atrocities professed atheism. (Perhaps this should be another thread? Or perhaps we two crusties should put aside the bastinado?)
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Old 30th Aug 2004, 1:23   #15
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Originally Posted by m.
...while as a catholic I have to acknowledge the Church teaching, as a citizen I'm rather for it. It sounds a bit hypocritical, but I don't think it is.... I find Christian doctrine on this point particularly hard to accept. :?

Still, I don't think same sex couples should adopt children.
I don't think your position is hypocritical m., but it is complicated. I guess that's inevitable when one is tugged at by contrary allegiances.

The question of adoption is an interesting corollary to the question of marriage. I'd even say it's the more vital of the two for taking another being into consideration. I think it's fine for gays to adopt. To use another analogy, granting the political right to marry w/o the right to adopt sounds a lot like the freedom granted to American blacks at the end of the Civil War. They were nominally free, but a double standard (under the rubric "separate but equal") existed for decades afterwards. I think society can only benefit from a fuller integration of its diverse elements, including families of gay parentage. Of course there will resistance, but hasn't there always been, to any reform?
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Old 30th Aug 2004, 10:30   #16
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Fair enough. I ought not to have said "in the name of". But wasn't atheism a central tenet of Communism? And even if I am mistaken on that point, surely the great majority of those who commited the atrocities professed atheism. (Perhaps this should be another thread? Or perhaps we two crusties should put aside the bastinado?)
Believe it or not, I've actually met a Catholic Communist, and there is a strain of "liberation theology" that has been practised by some very brave priests in South America that has elements very close to Marxism.

The Soviet State was officially atheist, and there can be little doubt that it suppressed the orthodox church there in brutal ways. But if you ally any system of belief (or unbelief) to a totalitarian state apparatus, then the potential for violence exists.

My point might be that I don't know of any mass-murder perpetrated (or even advocated) purely in the name of unbelief (to use a broader term). For example, I don't know of atheists (of whatever political persuasion) suggestion the violent suppression of the Christian faith in the name of just atheism. Sure, Communists, Nazis and their ilk may do it, but they are pre-disposed to butchery by their broader ideologies.

The day I see a violent demonstration with banners proclaiming: "Atheists unite - Destroy the Theists!", then I might change my view on this.
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Old 31st Aug 2004, 0:12   #17
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The Catholic Church HAS influenced policy regarding divorce. Divorce was illegal in Chile last year, and I think it may now be legal, will have to check-- but up until the point that a decision was made, the church spent millions on television ads and campaign donations as well as preaching the fire and brimstone message and threatening to excommunicate anyone that favored the measure...big scare tactics, and that is the religious rub.
Why opposed to adoption by same sex couples?
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Old 31st Aug 2004, 8:50   #18
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:) Hi Deb. Thanks for the info about Chile - I didn't know and it's interesting. Still, not that surprising - it's not that I'm not aware that in some countries the church abuses the influence it has over the people. The point I was trying to make is that there are issues where the church and civil legislation can differ but exist independently without getting into conflict. And talking about South America, Notty, the liberation theology was condemned by Vatican, as it equalled Christian message with fighting for social justice and accepted violence. Brave the priests might have been, but that's not all that counts. :)
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Old 1st Sep 2004, 8:51   #19
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the liberation theology was condemned by Vatican, as it equalled Christian message with fighting for social justice and accepted violence.
Oh, I'm sure it was. Can't get those peasants getting too uppity, can we?
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Old 1st Sep 2004, 16:05   #20
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:? So Notty, religion plus violence is bad but when we mix in a bit of Marxism it's passable???
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