Rant

[Colyngbourne]

It might be the wrong place for this but I have spleen I need to vent! :evil: My usual Tuesday pm wrath...

which I've had to edit - apologies!
........

........
SureStart who give absolutely no support to the group other than coming and making the members fill out questionnaires as to what provision they use/want;

who have reneged on providing extra large-scale toys or providing a list of hireable/loanable resources;

who organise so many ‘pamper’ sessions during the week (for the parents and not for the children) that the numbers attending the parent/toddler groups in town actually drop since mums don’t want to make the effort to walk out twice in a day.

[gil]

Horrendous, horrendous, horrendous.

I'm afraid that young parents are so used to being screeched at and brutalised by their children that they let them do anything they want. How do you get them out of that? Search me, guv.

And SureStart sounds like every Government agency... superficial and time-wasting. A plague upon them and all their works.

If you want a bit more attention, I suggest you clip one of the little horrors on the ear... No. Not the children. No. Not the parents. The Government Inspectors. Then you can be suspended on full pay for two years while they work out how to discipline you, and you can seek a new and more satisfying career in rhubarb horticulture, raffia art or septic tank services.

[Jerkass]

It's probably good that my wife usually takes our little girls to various playgroup thingies, because every time I'm there, I end up flashing a "are you going to do something with your kid before I have to kick him?" look at some disinterested parent of a little boy shoving my daughter around, as I try to intervene without actually touching the little angel.

I'm very good at direct social politics--it's the indirect kind, where I can't deal directly with someone but have to go through their embassy (i.e. parent), where I sometimes struggle.

Aside: No, of course I'm not going to kick a kid. Now...squirrels, maybe, if I could just figure out how to get close enough...

[HP]

Col, you have my every sympathy. I know precisely what of you speak. The local village playgroup which the boys attended when they were small, overcame many of your gripes by making helping out and clearing away mandatory for those who didn't work. God help you if you didn't do your fair share. But spoilt, badly behaved brats and bratettes and blindly besotted/disinterested parents? Oooh s'not (there was certainly a fair share of that commodity around) a nice memory at all. I played the game and did my fair share of it all, but oh the bliss when that particular stage was over.

[Colyngbourne]

Actually that stage of my own parenting *is* over - my youngest went to school two years ago.....

....Again edited - sorry!.....

And I know SureStart are doing very good things in other parts of the UK, but where I am, they rile me and they ride roughshod over the provision that is already there, as some way to justify their existence.

(I think I might finally have exorcised my shedload of fed-upness now... Wednesday ahoy! :D ...)

[amner]

They don't deserve you, Col. Picture them coping without...no, probably not a good idea.

[youjustmightlikeit]

Jack it in and concentrate on your own kids. Everyone else's kids ...correction.... their parents, are selfish a***holes.

This has nothing to do with parent toddler evenings, whatever they may be, but i was sat in a Starbucks a couple of months back in Greenwich, and in came the standard two upper middle class mums with attending toddlers. One of the little wonders had a toy digger with him, and he proceeded to dig out the coffee beans from the display under the till and spill them on the floor all over the narrow walkway while the mum looked on admiringly watching her little boy engaging in what she probably termed 'uninhibited child development role play'. They took over the whole shop, getting in everyone's way, and the mums thought everyone was delighted to see such beautiful children trash the joint. How i hated them. I was this close to 'spilling' my coffee on one of the little s**ts just to jolt the mums out of their privileged, cloistered, selfish little bubble.

[Colyngbourne]

You're right - it is the parents/adults that are at fault mostly. Some kids have problems with attention and other things but mostly they have not been taught a) how to speak b) how to relate to other people c) how to be quiet d) how to take turns etc. It is mostly following bad examples from their carers that results in the kind of behaviour that gets people tutting/infuriated.

Edited...

I have seen leaders remove a child from story-time for being disruptive and hitting another child. They carried him, squirming and lashing out, to a chair which he refused to sit on, but he did sit on the furry rug where the chair was. They explained his misdemeanour to him and then retreated to glare at him and continued to castigate him, somehow expecting some coherent response. Then they ignored him, as he wasn't causing them any grief - but he was left with his misbehaviour and nothing to do and no adult encouragement, only abandonment.

I agree that he needed to be removed from the story-time, and should be told why. I have no idea what the nursery policy is on whether you should leave a child to work out his 'crime' on his own, or should 'reward' their misbehaviour with attention but I was embarrassed enough by his situation that I did what I would have done with any of my own kids: sat near him with a big interesting picture book, took interest when he was examining scratches on his knees and sat on the furry rug with him and chatted about his knees; asked if he was feeling sad about missing story-time (answer=yes); reminded him of his behaviour and why he should try to not do it; then asked if he wanted to look at the book I had. Straightened the chair he had kicked over with an explanation; and ended up getting more chat out of him about the pictures in the book than I have had in a whole year with him (this child is only three).

Most of the time I see children misbehaving, it's down to the adults who have never taught them to sit still, (and the reasons why they should) etc - showing them the way the world works ( without making them drones) and relating to them as people in it, talking with them, rather than at them, not giving in to their every desire and want but teaching them about desire and want and need.

Sorry, another rant happened, and this is Happy Wednesday too :roll:

(On the attention thing, most of my kids' friends are simply unable to sit still and watch a whole film, even the 10+ age-group - they fidget and get up and want to go and do something else or start chattering with someone. They seem incapable of 'reading' a film the way we might read it, or of sustained attention to the story, even at its surface level, let alone the underlying meanings of it - this is related to reading, I think.)

[HP]

I'm afraid parenting is largely a matter of stumbling around in the dark, trying to do your best. And ignore all those ridiculous How To baby and toddler books, since you can bet your bottom dollar darling junior hasn't read the damn thing and therefore is not going to play ball with the advice within. Best use for those is for hitting the erring little swine over the head with to get them to sleep - and yes, I am joking. But I can't say I cared much for or saw much success for wasting too much time on explaining all the rights and wrongs of a child's naughty or destructive actions. Even very young kids know when they've misbehaved, as a rule. Nor do I agree with dragging out the whole unfortunate episode of bad behaviour with frosty looks or extended periods of time out etc. A sharp rebuke, a tone of voice that says you bloody-well mean it and are not to be argued with, and possibly a warning of what will follow if t happens again, seemed to suffice. I also operated a three strikes and you're out, policy. If the bad behaviour was repeated three times within a short space of time, then a short sharp smack was administered - nothing to bruise or inflict anything more than a fleeting smart - just a hey! That's enough! The most ineffectual thing a parent can do is drone on or try the ridiculous distraction technique. 'Oh do stop poking little Sophie with that knife, Tristram; let's watch Liam pulling out Annabelle's hair, instead.' Sheesh! A mum (who was a great friend and an intelligent lass) so couldn't bear the thought of chastising her son, wailed to me once, that she couldn't understand why he was invited to so few parties. That his beating up the guests, the parents, the furniture and family pet wasn't considered acceptable while she simply stood by tutting, didn't seem to have registered. No - get their attention, a sharp rebuke then forget it. Move on. And if the child does something good/kind/well - praise, praise, praise.

[NottyImp]

Most of the time I see children misbehaving, it's down to the adults who have never taught them to sit still, (and the reasons why they should) etc - showing them the way the world works ( without making them drones) and relating to them as people in it, talking with them, rather than at them, not giving in to their every desire and want but teaching them about desire and want and need.

This is, of course, eminently true. The question is, why is this happening?

I note that the government again is missing the point by setting up a "Task Force" to come up with a set of "National Standards" for school-kid behaviour. I'm not sure exactly what a government can usefully do about parenting, but isn't it obvious to even the most (and for that matter, least) liberal person that the problems start not in the school, but at home?

[amner]

I'm not sure exactly what a government can usefully do about parenting, but isn't it obvious to even the most (and for that matter, least) liberal person that the problems start not in the school, but at home?

YES! Unfortunately, nobody seems capable of such joined-up thinking. There are a mass of societal/cultural/political influences that have shifted us into this particular state, and firefighting with 'Task Forces' and the like will do nothing to solve the problem.

[John Self]

So... breeding licences are the answer? About time too!

[Colyngbourne]

I think the Taskforce will be ineffectual. It is mostly parenting skills that are needed. Partly there's a problem if, with the highlighted 'respect' issue, that if the parents don't have any respect/value for people who tell *them* what to do, knowing the broad ways that a society holds together, that they will find it difficult to communicate/model good ways of behaving themselves.

eg. in a school meeting with the head and representative teachers, there are parents who talk to each other throughout and ignore what is being said. Or parents who come to the school play at the last moment, to slip into a seat that has been (unfairly) reserved at the front; who criticise out loud in others' hearing, the fact that the teacher who wrote/produced the play gets to sit at the front; who talk all through the other classes' sections of the play and only shut up for the moments their child is on the stage, when they stand up and film the thing with a video-camera. Then they walk out of the play after that section because they're not interested in the rest of the play.
Or parents who attend with babies (sometimes unavoidable) but who refuse to take them out of the hall when the babies cry, thus ruining the play for the children performing, as well as the audience.

I think parenting classes can be a good way forward. Me and Mr. Col set one up about nine years ago (partly for our own need and benefit) which attracted seven or eight people to join in, but the lessons I learned from doing the course have stayed with me and still prove useful. All the 'parenting' TV that seems to be on at the moment is a reflection of how people are feeling rapidly powerless to deal with bad behaviour and their unwillingness to say 'no' to their children.

[pandop]

Just thought I would add a happy note to this thread.

Yesterday my Mum and I saw a matinee performance of Joseph and his amazing technicolor dreamcoat - and my heart sank when I realised that there would be over 200 primary school children in the auditorium with us.

Yes they were loud and noisy and fidgety, until the performance started. After that we hardly heard them (apart from appropriate laughing etc) - until we were invited to join in the last song. I was duely impressed.

Hazel

[jim]

On a related point I see Jools Oliver has a baby book out. I think it is incredibly irritating of her to presume that she has anything helpful or interesting to say about raising children just because she has a couple herself.

I must admit I have an irrational dislike of her anyway. I think its her name. It's Julia presumably, which admittedly is a bit of a naff name but calling yourself Jools always seems to me to be a desperate attempt to make yourself sound cool.

[Colyngbourne]

There was a bit of a rant about her in the weekend Indy, saying much the same as you, jim, but adding that she has probably been encouraged into it by Jamie ( it was an anti-Jamie rant too), and that she probably didn't want the nickname Jools but it was him popularising it in his Naked Chef progs that meant she couldn't not use it.

I don't see the point in the book, other than it being a way of reading a different set of ways that children can behave and what worked for them so far (the children are still very young, aren't they?). It probably seemed like a good business opportunity since everyone saw the children during Jamie's Kitchen Dinners and they came across as cute things.

[NottyImp]

Another way to look at it is that most kids know what is wrong and not to do it (at least some of the time), but often don't seem to know or want to do what is pro-actively right.

Most kids don't beat the crap out of each other, most don't vandalise the neighbourhood and most aren't excessively rude. But equally, my experience of older kids both at home and at College is that you get little in the way of a two-way street with them.

And that, it seems to me, is the difficult part of parenting. Teaching your kids the good things to do, not just the bad things they shouldn't.

[Colyngbourne]

I think you've nailed it there, Notty.

[HP]

If you as a parent walk the walk and talk the talk, the kids follow, believe me. And don't ever preach, just do it. They learn to be proactively 'good' by following your actions, not by your waffle.

[Colyngbourne]

I think some things need explaining because younger children can't instinctively understand why you have to keep quiet in quiet places, why you might give the spare change in your purse to a charity collector and not buy them an ice-cream with it; why you don't rudely/impatiently demand things in cafes/toyshops or lie on the floor screaming; why you don't kick back if your sister is kicking you.

I agree though there is much to simply imitate - holding doors, being polite to people, not pushing/into in queues etc.

[HP]

Yes, don't get me wrong - spending time talking with your children (not at them) is hugely enjoyable as well as beneficial all round, but I am very agin lecturing or preaching or worthy-but-dull sermons. And I've overheard far too many from seemingly well-intentioned but ineffective parents and seen the results, to know these are counter-productive. It comes as no surprise that so many kids seem to be selectively deaf. The moment their parent starts droning on, you can see their attention wander. It really is all about guiding your junior beloveds through the early stages of life with fun, firm leadership. And the fun element is incredibly important. When the child trusts and above all 'likes' his parents as well as loving them, they're on the right road as a rule to becoming a valuable and likeable member of society.

[Colyngbourne]

It's interesting in that this thread has focussed on how we deal with children, and talk to them/at them; but there are no strategies for dealing with the parents without being rebuffed or having your head bitten off for accusing them of bad parenting.

[HP]

Is it our business to interfere, however much we'd like to? Would it do any good if you did? How did you deal with this (or didn't you dare go there!) at those parenting classes, Col?

[Colyngbourne]

I don't honestly know. When there's been a fractious child in a supposedly quiet setting, sometimes I've had things to hand (in my pockets or bag) that can help - very often a mini-notepad and pencil, which has distracted the child by them drawing things, and they're cheap enough to just hand out and walk away. Sometimes I've chatted to the child, if I've known the parent well enough to do that; or I've stayed with one child while the parent goes to deal with another tantrum-child.

In the parenting course, we were all in it together but some of the strategies for dealing with your own child can be used with others, as when children get into squabbles at toddler groups or are refusing to share with other children (at parties, other people's houses, toddler groups etc)

[NottyImp]

If you as a parent walk the walk and talk the talk, the kids follow, believe me. And don't ever preach, just do it. They learn to be proactively 'good' by following your actions, not by your waffle.

I agree with you, but I'm a step-parent (in fact, not even officially that, as we're not married), and that presents some pretty unique difficulties. Especially when you don't see eye-to-eye with your partner on certain issues.

[youjustmightlikeit]

Console yourself Jim then, that Juliette "Jules" Oliver has been afflicted with what we call 'ugly babies'.

Unfortunately for the ex-model, her kids have taken after their fat tongued father. Have you seen them? Shudder!



EDIT: I've just read that Jules has polycystic ovary syndrome, which means that she might not have been able to have kids at all; so i'll retract my former statement and say that it's Jamie Oliver who has been afflicted with 'ugly babies' rather than the lovely Jules.

[Jerkass]

Is it our business to interfere, however much we'd like to?

I think it is our business to interfere in situations such as a few I've encountered recently: we're paying good American dollars for little Mads to go to gym and art classes, and three little terrors prevent anyone from learning anything by spending the entire time madly charging around out of control, while their mothers hang around the back of the room sipping lattés and chatting about what they plan to do over the weekend. After several weeks of this, the teacher of the class had fairly given up trying to teach much of anything, after spending the first half of each class trying to get the attention of the wild children, which of course caused her to lose the attention of all the other children.

In this particular case, I told the people organizing the class that if they wanted to see any more of my good American dollars for the next session, they might want to have a stern word with a few of the other parents.

In other situations, I might be more direct. I suppose people can raise (or not) their children however they please, but when they start to infringe upon my own children's lives, I'm not sitting back and saying, "well, it's not my business to interfere..."

[HP]

I was meaning was it right to go up to a parent and tell them that their parenting skills sucked?! - not suggesting you stood by and did nothing. And would it do any good if you did tackle the parents? Because, in many cases, I think not. Most are convinced they're doing a darn fine job - else why do they let their little blossoms run amok and do nothing? Had you spoken to the moms of those little hooliganesses instead of the teacher or principal, what do you honestly think the outcome would be, J/A? I'm afraid if it's clear the parents aren't at all concerned by their offspring's offensive behaviour I've always dealt with the kiddlywink direct. It may not be honourable or the done thing, and I only had recourse to do it on a couple of occasions - but both time it got results and strangely enough, I never had a grumble from the parents.

[NottyImp]

...strangely enough, I never had a grumble from the parents.


Yes, I wonder why?

[pandop]

It's interesting in that this thread has focussed on how we deal with children, and talk to them/at them; but there are no strategies for dealing with the parents without being rebuffed or having your head bitten off for accusing them of bad parenting.

I could direct you to a forum where we have both these conversations quite regularly

Hazel

[Colyngbourne]

Do direct ahead :D

[pandop]

Do direct ahead :D

www.etiquettehell.com

Clink on the link for 'Discussion forum' - and it will take you to a Delphi board, you will have to register, but basic membership is free

Hazel

[HP]

Notty wrote:

Quote:
...strangely enough, I never had a grumble from the parents.



Yes, I wonder why?

I think because in both cases the miscreants were known bullies; both were forever in hot water with the school and the cause of intense misery amongst the other kids. Talking to their parents wasn't going to change squiddly squat - they were more likely to headbutt you or reshape your car! But a quiet, 'meaningful' word or two did the trick - I don't think they told their parents, to be honest.

But having just read through this thread, I'm horribly aware I'm probably sounding like I have all the answers - which I certainly don't - and which is a stand-in-the-corner-till-home-time offence, in itself. So I apologise unreservedly. Like I said nearer the start of this thread, I think parenting is muddling around in the dark, doing your best, learning as you go. You'll never know how right or wrong you got it till those children you've sweated and fretted over, are old enough to be raising their own. Ours are eighteen and nineteen and I like the people they've become as well as loving 'em to death. But am fully aware that this happy state of affairs could well be in spite of our efforts, not because of them!

Off to eat a big slab of humble pie ....!

[Colyngbourne]

I'm with you on that, HP - feeling that I have no answers really, just a bunch of experiences, some of which worked, some of which didn't. :roll:

[Wavid]

On a related point I see Jools Oliver has a baby book out. I think it is incredibly irritating of her to presume that she has anything helpful or interesting to say about raising children just because she has a couple herself.

I must admit I have an irrational dislike of her anyway. I think its her name. It's Julia presumably, which admittedly is a bit of a naff name but calling yourself Jools always seems to me to be a desperate attempt to make yourself sound cool.

The Guardian have featured (http://books.guardian.co.uk/digestedread/story/0,6550,1499926,00.html) this book in their 'Digested Read' thingy:

I have to admit that it's always been my ambition to write a book and now my HUSBAND is a celebrity I can! I hope you find it as interesting as I do!
I have always wanted children since before I can remember, so I started talking to Jamie about having a BABY long before we met. Trying for babies is BRILLIANT fun of course, but we were both really disappointed when I did not get pregnant on our honeymoon. On one occasion I did think I might be pregnant as I developed a CRAVING for strawberry cheesecake. Unfortunately, it just turned out that I wanted to eat some strawberry cheesecake!

Because I had polycystic ovaries I was concerned I would be unable to conceive, so when I still wasn't PREGNANT after a month Jamie and I went to see one of the world's leading fertility experts. He gave me some drugs and told me to have sex. Because Jamie is so famous I had to arrange times with his PA to have SEX. I was going to say SHAG but my Mum might read this! I love my MUM lots and lots. I love my dad, too. And my fabulous SISTER.

One day I woke up and found that my preganancy test was POSITIVE. I was so excited, I rushed out and spent loads of money on maternity clothes, but they didn't fit me till much later. Not many women realise you don't get FAT the moment you get pregnant. Before long I began to suffer from terrible morning sickness. This is when you are sick in the morning. It took me some time to work out what was going on because Jamie's FOOD used to make me feel sick anyway.

At first I only told my parents, my 100 best friends and Hello! that I was pregnant and I was deeply HURT that the tabloid newspapers found about it and told the REST of the world before I could. But that's the price of being married to Jamie!

Before you have a baby, it's good to have a birth plan. Here's MINE:

1) Go to hospital.

2) Have baby.

It was great to come home with our darling Poppy, though it took a while to get used to the fact she was going to be in the house 24 hours a day. Thank goodness for my fantastic friends at the NCT. They were fantastic.

I struggled a bit with breast feeding to start with - cracked NIPPLES, yuk don't go there! - and I was never very good at changing nappies. I hadn't realised babies needed to POO as well as eat. Luckily, Jamie is the best DAD in the world.

Within two months I was pregnant with Daisy, but I'm not going to write much about her as she's not that interesting. One of the best days was Poppy's first birthday, which just happened to fall on the same day she was born! WHAT a coincidence.

And that's it really. So lie back, run yourself a bath. And put the book in it!