The Pope........for God's sake !

[Maggie]

Just saw a news article regarding the aging pontif........he will need to have a feeding tube insterted, as he is too weak to swallow.

O.K., correct me it I am wrong. Is not the Pope the headsman for the oldest form of Christian religion ? Is it not true that all true Christian's believe that upon leaving this earthly life, they will be going to a BETTER place ? Is not the man 87 years old ?

This is what I propose we do. Sometime, shortly after birth, we surgically install a feeding tube on ALL babies. That way, should our brains die off before our bodies, should we live to an age where we get too weak to chew, should some disease ravage our physical being, we can still be sustained thru this pre-inserted tube. This would make us better prepared should we ever have to face the inevitable.

I, in no way, mean any disrespect to the "Pope" I am not Catholic nor do I consider myself a "Christian" but I do respect the right to believe in what ever faith one chooses to. But, somewhere in this little event around the end of the aging Pope's life, I smell a bit of hypocrisy.


This would be a perfect time for the "head honco" of all Christianity to set an example. Well, I guess he is but IMHO it does not go along with everything he claims to have lived his life for !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Maggie

[John Self]

Sadly you don't get to be Pope by being a moderate. I am sure that if the Pontiff had the strength to express a view on the Terri Schiavo case, to take a random feeding-tube-removal story from recent weeks, it would be up there with the illiberal right-wing pro-lifers. This assumption is purely based on his repellent stances over the years on contraception, homosexuality and so on.

By the way a few weeks ago, the top story on the BBC News website - the most important thing happening in the world for a whole day - was headed Pope Waves From Hospital Window (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4301711.stm). Light news day was it? I mean wasn't Jennifer Lopez doing anything of interest?

[m.]

I haven't seen the news article you're referring to, but what I read from your post is in perfect agreement with the Pope's teaching, Maggie. I mean where do you see the contradiction? And, I am not able to give you the source, but I think I read about the Pope's statement (some time ago, not in relation with Terri case) that feeding tube isn't therapy (which could be abandoned in hopeless cases) but basic care, ie providing food.

[amarie]

I have to say that I agree with m. I don't really see what point you're trying to make, Maggie.

[Maggie]

m

I guess my question regarding this whole deal is this :

What makes "inserting a feeding tube" God's will, while the aging process, weakness or physical infirmity, is not?

To my mind when Shiavo's heart stopped and her brain was damaged, it was God's will. When the feeding tube was inserted we took it upon ourselves to disrupt what God had put in place. How long should someone be kept alive? Who was going to decide at what age Terri Shiavo was going to die?

In regards to the Pope, he is old and he has been ill on and off for quite some time. God designed the human body and when we get that old we often don't even want to eat. Food has lost it's appeal. Nothing tastes good. Don't you think maybe this is a natural process ?

I mentioned this once before, when humans lived in tribial situations and life was "community based" the elders did not feel it was their right to use valuable resources when the younger members of their society needed them.

We have extended our life expactancy and enhanced the life we have thru our knowledge which isn't a bad thing but somewhere along the line, for everyone of us, we are going to hit a wall. I just pray that when my time comes, I will have the grace to accept it and that those who care for me will have enough respect to honor my acceptance.

I just can not wrap my mind around the fact that we can profess to want to live life as God ordains and then go to such measures to deny what is supposed to be our "final reward".

I am not saying that our medical knowledge and techniques should not be used to enhance lives or save lives for that matter. But, and this I firmly believe, somewhere along the way, we lost a little thing called common sense. The desire of mankind to control all that he surveys promotes behavior that doesn't always make a whole lot of sense.

There seems to be no ability to "Let go and let God"

This is just a personal observation. It is how I explain, to myself, things like the Shiavo case or the Pope.


Maggie (on a rant) :shock:

[bakunin_the_cat]

I think the feeding tube connection is a bit of a red herring. In Terri Schiavo's case it's about the Right to Die. The Pontiff, as far as I know, has expressed no particular desire to die, and irritatingly enough for some I'm sure, resolutely clings to life, which is after all his right too. It would only really be a story if after denouncing the removal of the tube in Mz Schiavo's case, he slipped into a vegetative state for several years with no hope of improvement and had his own tube removed. Not particularly likely,
a) because of his aggresive pro-life stance and
b) given the number of cardinals who want to be what is arguably the most powerful religious leader on Earth, I can't believe that fourteen years of coma would pass before somebody else did it for him.

EDIT: if this seems a little strange, I started writing before Maggie's reply came in.

[bakunin_the_cat]

Ultimately I think the God's Will line is a red herring too. If everything that happens is his Will, then it was his Will that gave us the technology to create a feeding tube, and his Will to let us decide we can remove it. It's like the old chestnut, if God had meant us to fly then he would have given us wings. If he hadn't meant us to fly why did he give us large brains, opposable thumbs, the ability to use language which led to tool-building and ultimately flight, nuclear war and all the other acoutrements of modern life. Dr Frankenstein can lose control of the monster he created but surely not an all-knowing, all-powerful god.

Anyway before I go off on one, I was going to say that the term 'God's Will' seems to be used as a way of justifying anything from the dodgy to the downright genocidal, of swaying the masses with simple language and not have to provide a reasoned argument. "Let us 'liberate' the Holy Land. It is God's Will." " Let us punish the heathen, kill the Jew, tame the savage, protect the strong, squash the weak, promote ignorance and torture and death. It is God's Will."

[Maggie]

bakunin,

I agree with you 100 % When I used the example of Shiavo's heart failure as being God's will, I was playing devil's advocate. How can anyone really propose to know "God's Will" ? Here is where, IMHO, common sense should prevail. It has been my experiance that often when "religion" comes into play.......common sense takes a back seat.

Note the word "common" in the above phrase. Seems as if, in today's world that "common" fell by the way side. The new rule of thumb would be "this should be conducted according to what makes sense to ME" and I have "MY rights !"

It is interesting to note that in all of the polls done around the Shiavo case, 87% of those polled would NOT want to live like she has for the past 15 yrs. What kind of comment is that ?

Maggie (who is done with her rant now !)

[m.]

Maggie, thanks for clarifying. I'm also glad to see that by agreeing with bak 100 % you've admitted that Terri Schiavo's and the Pope's cases are in fact very different. Of course it doesn't change the fact that, as John Self pointed out, the Pope's view on Schiavo's case would be probably close to that expressed by conservative pro-lifers. Which would be quite against my feelings, as expressed in the other thread, that in this particular case it's better to let the woman die sooner and not artificially prolong her agony.

[m.]

related article (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=8044720&pag eNumber=0) - if anyone is interested.

ETA - this article corrects some things that I said earlier

[Maggie]

m

I guess one might say my rant really goes much deeper than the issues around Shiavo, the Pope, feeding tubes, life support or euthanasia.

In this day and age we have come so far from accepting death as a part of life. I worked in an ICU unit and witnessed death quite often. Most often this lack of acceptance was acted out by the family with no regard to the dying patient. In most cases the patient will come to some sort of peace regarding the situation and the fact that their loved ones can't or won't makes for a harder passing.

When I watch the situation with the Pope, I see a perfect opportunity to set an example of acceptance. He IS old, he IS ill (in several ways) and his end is most definately close. Yet, instead of people wishing him a peaceful journey and a comfortable passing, they are praying to SAVE him. For how long ?? To what end ?? He is a symbol of one of the biggest religious organizations in the world. He is a representative of Christ who, by all accounts I'm aware of, walked to his own death with as much dignity as he could.

It seems to me that those who profess to believe that we are all going somewhere "better" are the very same people who will go to any length not to get there.

In comparing the Pope to Shiavo the only similarity I see is the denial issue. Shiavo is young but has no quality of life what so ever, the Pope is old and ill.......what life he has left will most likely be very fragile. For both of these persons, the end will ultimately be the same. I see an opportunity to be relieved that they will finally get past the suffering and reach a place of peace. What seems to be the goal of all the "pro-lifers" is to keep breath going in an out at all costs.

I have no clue what happens when we die.........none what so ever. But, I know that it is inevitable and I would wish to make the process as peaceful and easy as possible. As far as I know denial never made anything easy or peaceful.

We could do well to watch how animals die. The first indication that they are nearing the end is that they stop eating. They do not appear to be in agony. They sleep a lot and stop eating. That is unless they are terribly ill. If this is the case we (most of us) will take them to a place where they will be "put to sleep". We find it inhumane to watch them suffer. Of course there are always exceptions to this but more often than not we treat our pets better than our loved ones.

I don't know how many times in the past couple months I have heard our leaders use the phrase "life based society" Well, guys, guess what.......death is a part of life. If not your own you going to have to be dealing with, it will be someone you care about. To insist on denying it , and to, in some cases, prolong it at all costs, will not make it go away.

Maggie

[John Self]

I agree Maggie.

[Maggie]

P.S.

Where are all these "pro-lifers" when all of the body bags are returning from Iraq ? or even if they showed some remorse for those unfortunate Iraqi's who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and are no more ?

These death's seem much more unnatural than Shiavo's or the Pope's.
It would be the very same idiots who supported the buffon who caused all this death and distruction who are carrying signs saying "Let Terri Live"

I see such hypocrisy..........drives me f#$%@$g nuts ! :shock:

Maggie (once again venting her spleen :? )

[m.]

I guess one might say my rant really goes much deeper than the issues around Shiavo, the Pope, feeding tubes, life support or euthanasia.
Maggie

For me all this goes much deeper too and relates to things that I haven't quite worked out for myself. I'm not surprised then that my posts may seem puzzling or contradictory. Sorry for that. I'm trying to spare you my half-baked views, but apparently without much success. :wink:

[Maggie]

m

Part of the problem, as I see it, is the fact that modern society doesn't acknowledge these issues and when confronted with aging, death and dying or qualitiy of life, religion gets involved and things tend to be looked at unrealistically.

It is hard for member's of today societies to muddle through these things. There is no preparation, and our views are based on unrealistic expectations.

At least you are thinking about them. If anything good comes from all this Shiavo stuff, it will be that some people may realise that they do themselves a disservice when they don't live with the realitiy of death.

As for religious beliefs, I do feel that, since the dawn of time, humans have recognized a sense of mystery and a greater power. This has been celebrated in many different ways and at many different levels. On an individual basis it is a good thing........ it helps when faced with all that is unexplainable and therefore fearful. The problems start when what is meant to be taken metaphorically, is taken literally.

The two of the most powerful lines I have ever read, regarding spirituality, come from the Tao Te Ching.

"The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao"

"Free from desire, you realize the mystery. Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations."

Ah............what fools we mortals are ! (another line by a another Sage who, IMHO, had some powerful insights) :D


Maggie

[wshaw]

It's Diana time again. What gets my goat is the way everyone was falling over themselves to eulogize the Pope (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4405743.stm) while deftly overlooking what has been a tricky couple of decades for Catholicism... lest they seem less than pious in their respect.

After all, not only did the Papacy under JP2 do some pretty despicable things (http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1059068,00.html) to promote its fundamentalist sexual agenda, but his anti-Marxism which may have served Poland so well created a bitter division between the Vatican and Latin American churches .

Ah, this vacuous age of mass-mouring. People like Tony trip over themselves to say things like, "He never wavered, never flinched, in the struggle for what he thought was good and right." Er... so how come that's not a good thing when Ayatollah Khameni does it?

Even though I'd guess about 95% of Britons lead a sexual life which JPII would find morally abhorrent, and find his homophobic and pro-Life reproductive moralities downright disturbing, we're suddenly praising him as a beacon of rectitude. It's bonkers.

[bakunin_the_cat]

It's one of life's great ironies that you can always find someone to praise you exactly at the moment when you can no longer hear it.

I suppose as popes go he wasn't that bad. He didn't support a holocaust, start a religious war or embezzle millions from the Church. Ok, he didn't attempt to modernize it, or sell off his golden toilet seat to house beggars in Rome, or use his position to change attitudes to contraception at least partly responsible for the millions dying of HIV/AIDS, but the Catholic Church itself has always been ultra-conservative and resistant to any kind of change. Without the will of the organization it's difficult to know how much even the Supreme Pontiff can be expected to achieve. Given the numbers of people currently streaming past his coffin, I guess Catholics would say he was a good leader. For me he was just some guy with a stand-up bubble car and a penchant for kissing airport tarmac who has now departed for a higher plane!

[Studio Audience]

*groan*

*ha ha ha ha ha ha ha*

[NottyImp]

Even though I'd guess about 95% of Britons lead a sexual life which JPII would find morally abhorrent, and find his homophobic and pro-Life reproductive moralities downright disturbing, we're suddenly praising him as a beacon of rectitude. It's bonkers.

It's part of the notion that we should:

a) Still kow-tow to established authority, regardles of what it does.
b) Have respect for strongly-held religious belief, regardless of what it entails (and as long as it's not that nasty Islam stuff).

As an example of a), did you know that under English law some offences carry heavier sentences if they are committed against officials of the State? So it matters not that you punch someone in the face, but who you punch in the face?

As an example of b), I remember not so long ago reading a report in our local rag here about a man who was unfortuantely attacked in his neighbourhood. It made a big deal out of what a devout christian he was and how often he went to church. As if, somehow, had he not been, it would have mattered less that he'd had the shit kicked out of him by some local thugs.

As the yanks say, go figure.

[Colyngbourne]

More popery -

from the BBC
"Cardinal Ratzinger has been head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith - formerly known as the Holy Office of the Inquisition - since 1981. "


Great!

[RC]

(For the nice accompanying illustrations, see The Onion.)



HEAVEN—The soul of Pope John Paul, which entered heaven last week following a long illness, expressed confusion and disappointment Saturday, upon learning that the Celestial Kingdom of God to which the departed faithful ascend in the afterlife is significantly less luxurious than the Vatican's Papal Palace, in which the pope spent the past 26 years of his earthly life.


Above: St. Peter's Basilica, with its 90-foot bronze baldachin designed by Bernini, is one of the many Vatican splendors no longer enjoyed by Pope John Paul II (below).
"Where are all the marble statues, sterling-silver chalices, and gem-encrusted scepters?" the visibly disappointed pope asked. "Where are the 60-foot-tall stained-glass windows and hand-painted cupolas? Where are the elaborately outfitted ranks of Swiss Guards? Why isn't every single surface gilded? This is my eternal reward?"

Heaven, according to the New Testament, has "brilliance like a very costly stone... of pure gold, like clear glass..." with "twelve gates... each gate a single pearl." Yet the pope, who spoke from the afterlife, said heaven is nothing like the "solid-gold city" detailed at length by John of Patmos in the Book of Revelations.

"Evidently, the Bible was not intended to be taken literally, after all," John Paul II said. "Don't get me wrong: It's very nice up here—quite beautiful and serene. It's just not as fancy as what I'm accustomed to. If I'd known heaven was going to be like this, I would've taken one last tour through my 50 rooms of velvet-draped thrones and priceless oil paintings before saying 'Amen' and breathing my last."

According to the pope, heaven is merely a place of unending peace and happiness, wherein all the spirits of the Elect live together forever in perfect harmony and goodness, basking in the rays of God's divine love.


"Up here, everyone is equal," John Paul II said. "No one has to go through an elaborate bowing ritual when they greet me. And do you know how many times my ring has been kissed since I arrived? None. Up here, I'm mingling with tax collectors, fishermen, and whores. It's just going to take a little getting used to, is all."

The pope said it is amusing to think that he has been waiting for this "so-called Paradise" his entire life.

"I spent almost 84 years reciting novenas and Hail Marys to get to this restful place," John Paul II said. "If I'd wanted peace, quiet, and pretty clouds, I could've moved to the Italian Riviera. Frankly, this afterlife represents a significant drop in my standard of living."

"Well, they always said you can't take it with you," he added.


Above: An artist's depiction of a disappointingly austere heaven.

[kumquat]

I like this a lot!

I think the diana comment earlier was telling. I read an article about that idea earlier this week. Why such an outpouring of emotion for one person. Charles and Camilla postponing their wedding and the PM going to the funeral with his tradional head-dressed wife beside him. I thought the comparison with diana a little excessive considering how her funeral was like a day of national mourning. Nevertheless, it seems to be an indicator of something significant. Is it too cynical to think that Tony was counting up the catholic voters who would see him paying homage to the Pope?

[bakunin_the_cat]

Much as it pains me to say it, for once you're probably being a bit hard on old Tone. What with him being a 'world leader' and everything he'd be pretty much expected to turn up to the old guy's funeral, and with his wife being a Catholic, she'd probably want to be there. OK maybe the black lace veil seemed a bit much, but I don't think it was meant specifically to woo RC voters.

As for the eulogising, when everybody else is doing it, it takes a brave man not to. Especially with an election coming up and all the media watching. Now who's being cynical?